Natural Capital Conversations
What is Natural Capital?
I talked with Matt Ross MAATTR a few months ago, and wanted to share the transcript with you
Michael Boyle: I've been following you for a while now, Matt, and you have been coming up with some very insightful components tied to this idea of natural capital and the actual valuation. And I get the impression from you that you believe that we are on the cusp of a transformation in properly understanding not only what natural capital is about but that we will not have much of an option in using that as our base instead of what we've been continuing to use certainly since the beginning of the industrial revolution. So perhaps if you can talk to us a little bit about your views as to where we are with maybe describing natural capital from your perspective, and how you see things moving forward.
Matt Ross: Thank you very much for all of the conversations we had before and for your support. I really appreciate it. What language is that every word in the dictionary has a definition, yet depending on where you're from, definitions can change. So I think it's very important we start off with what natural capital means when I'm talking about it as I define it. it is nature's ability to provide for us. It's the capital on which we can generate and build life.
Matt Ross: So I include human capital as an important part of natural capital, but we're also the only expendable part of natural capital. Humans left, and nature would be thriving on her own. So there's a reason we're here. It's not to destroy, control, and extract from her.
Matt Ross: It's to assist her in flourishing. It's for us to understand that there are medicines in leaves that certain things can perform certain functions, and that we can build houses from trees, etc etc. So it's the building blocks of life and when we talk about capital kind of relates to wealth. How much capital do you have? How much wealth do you have? And if we look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, the things that we all need and require are food, water, energy, and shelter. they're all the things that nature gives us. Everything else on top of that is it's in essence, a luxury because it's non-essential.
Matt Ross: However, we managed to create a world where all of our value is in the non-essentials, and the essentials have been disregarded and not looked after properly, and extracted, and we seem to have come to a point where we are reaching the end. We are realizing that what we thought the previous generations quite rightly thought was infinite is actually very finite. We only have so many trees and land and seas and corals, and we can't just continually take and take. And we're seeing that a lot, I think, in fishing and the damage that's being done by huge industrial fishing fleets.
Matt Ross: The distances that certain nations have to send their ships to collect natural capital for me are the building blocks of life. It is the basis of wealth because you might have a lot of money, but it doesn't necessarily mean you're wealthy. If you have a $20 million apartment in Manhattan, if they turn the electricity off and there are no food imports, you're not in good shape. So wealth is what's left when the cash is gone.
Matt Ross: So we have very, very wealthy countries, rich countries like Singapore and Hong Kong, but they're highly dependent on nature and imported food and water filtration and stuff like this. So they probably only last a week or so if things change. It is the asset. It's the tree, the air. It is all the things that we need to live. If pollinators go, I think we'll last six months.
Matt Ross: If the air changes, we last a couple of minutes. If the temperature changes or if we don't have food, we can last a few weeks. We don't have water, and we can last a couple of days. So it's bringing the value back to nature, the natural capital as the asset that underlies all other value streams.
Michael Boyle: I get the impression based on what I'm following in your various publications that you feel that we are on the prefaces of that realization that you were referring to in understanding that we cannot hold back that momentum that you were referring to on the one side and secondly that the actual valuation of this natural capital will take over that of what we have been considered to be wealth.
Matt Ross: I think that I started life as an investment banker. I was from England, from London, and became a banker, and then at 33. I've lived on both sides. I've lived in the left brain as an egotistical, probably money-driven investment banker, and then I became a small farmer on $100 a month when I lived, eating food that came out of the floor that morning and ate.
Matt Ross: And so for the last 15 years, I've actually lived behind the veil of the advertising business. I soon realized that organic and fair trade, and the co-ops, etc, were promising me. It didn't really seem to be happening when I went there. And I thought the farmers were having a much better life than they were.
Matt Ross: And so for the last 15 years, I've seen a situation where when I first got there, a few farmers had a Nokia mobile phone. Not that they ever used them. I think it's 6210, the little gray one. That's what they had. But now, all of them have mobile phones with 4G, 5G, and lots of kids have tablets. so they have direct access to the world outside, and they see where they're living, the situation they are and how much they're making. It's very unfair, and it's not very attractive to live there.
Matt Ross: In the mountains where we have the coffee, it gets very, very cold at night. You set a fire. They don't have central heating. Most of the family will live in one room. And a lot of them use wood and gas to cook. And there's one village where there are 12 houses. It's on a mountain. The road bends around a mountain. And on that edge, it's amazing for coffee. The slope is perfect and everything. So about 12 families have built houses on the side and the right-hand side of the road there's an outlet pipe and water comes out spring water unbelievable but we're at 1,500 m so 3 about 2 and a half thousand 3,000 ft above sea level so it's cold around that is about six and tar pooling and that water outlet
Matt Ross: is for all the 12 houses for cleaning up, drinking, using for cooking, and they're selling organic fair trade coffee to people that So if it's not a full moon, there's no street lighting up there. If it's not a full moon and you've got a newborn baby and it's pooped itself and you got to go and wash it, the mom has to get up in the night, go out with a torch, walk along the road and you can see your breath and then take the baby, the water that's coming out, it's hard to believe it's not solid because it's so cold and I wash the baby. So, they used to come I had to wash with the bucket. It's the coldest water I've ever had.
Matt Ross: So no, there's no hot water, there's no street lights, central heating, nothing like that. It's fire. It's very, very basic and very expensive to send a child to school. So if you have two children and if you have two kids, they both go to school, you'll pretty much spend 90% of your monthly income just on those two. So, three things are important. We've forgotten these in the West, but when you go to bed at night, you think, is there a roof over my head, food on my table, and is my family safe? Not many people have all three. Where I grew up in England, you start at number four. In Indonesia, if you do have three, there is no four.
Matt Ross: So they're very different value systems to us, and also, money is our number when we build a business, and we build a business plan. Money is the determining factor, and it's our primary currency that determines value if a business is successful and how we run it. It's all based on currency number one, whereas money is not in their top five currencies. So that was an interesting one to understand how to map over the importance of money for me and the importance of money for them, and what their currencies are. So in the last 15 years, I've had an insight into a world that today you can't read about on Google.
Matt Ross: It's only through being there and living there and living in these little villages and becoming a part of it that you understand actually what the situation is. The situation is that any kid over about three or four has already checked out farming, and when the parents die, if there's more than one kid, they'll just sell it and they'll divide the money, and leave. So we don't have any farmers. So this is the issue. And there are two very important trees that we rely on coconut and cacao. They both have a lifespan. Both of those are in the next we have farmers that are in their last decade of work.
Matt Ross: They're the last generation that is farming. I think maybe 50 or 60% of farmers in Indonesia are between 40 and 60. 13% are between. So you have the grandchildren and the grandparents, and anyone of working age has left the village. So, coconuts are 10 years away from extinction. Maybe cacao is a little bit different. I mean 70% is grown in the Ivory Coast in Ghana, and when the average age of a cacao farmer
Matt Ross: And we were in that situation. But I don't think consumers are aware that their purchasing power has led to that, or that our extractive system has led to that. But whilst I think we're on a precipice, just like nature moves in a phase transition, water is cold and then all of a sudden it's ice. We'll think we're on the ledge, and the next thing we're falling. It won't happen slowly. All the coconuts in the world will die within three years. It won't happen slowly over 20 or 30 years.
Matt Ross: We will think, the ledge is miles away." But then we're actually on the ledge, and then we're falling. It's going to go quickly. But we have time to act now. And we have time to act in a way that has not been acted before because we can't repeat what got us there. We need new ways and new systems. And luckily, the world's full of new people. And we all have one of these. So, we're all interconnected, and change can happen really, really quickly. So, I'm full of hope. I think it's great. And if you think about a coconut, you put one coconut; if it's a hybrid or a dwarf coconut, it will mature in about four and a half years. You start having fruit after about four and a half years. So, let's say five years.
Matt Ross: You have one coconut, you put it in the ground. Five years, you put the 200 coconuts in the ground. In year 10, you got 200 coconut trees, which'll give you 40,000 nuts. You put the 40,000 nuts in the ground. Year in year 15, you’ve got 8 million nuts. So, a coconut can go from 1 to 8 million in 15 years.
Matt Ross: 20 commercial uses of the five different parts of it. And so you have a compound annual growth rate of 168%. Guaranteed with no upkeep costs. It takes care of itself. It just keeps fruiting. That's the definition of abundance.
Matt Ross: That's why it's the tree of life. We've got to make sure we don't lose that one. Yeah.
Michael Boyle: You already led me to a few things that I was going to ask you about the recent articles that I found within your Substack, specifically tied to the Ca,cao, but you brought me to some interesting ideas. The first one would be tied to the price that we are paying for. We'll stay with coconuts. Let's stay with coconuts. The actual price that we're paying for coconuts. The cost that we have if we look at all the externalities tied to how we're extracting such resources and not really paying for them properly, and not leaving the time for that type of development.
Michael Boyle: How do you foresee this scenario taking place when the prices spike, as you alluded to in your article tied to Cacao, and what the reaction will be from us to spur that type of development that you just referred to?
Matt Ross: Cacao, and then we call it cocoa. So, cacao is the seed that's grown at the source. That's what's exported out to Europe. They cocoa. Comes with a different product. That's why none of the money is left of the origin. They export raw cacao seeds to other countries. I think if you accumulated the top 10 cacao producers for their total income from cacao, they wouldn't make it to the top 10 earners of cocoa.
Matt Ross: It's pretty mad. yeah, I've said in there that cacao was trading 10 years ago there was a bit of a supply shock. There was an El Niño event in Ghana. 20% got lost. Prices went up 50%. I think it went to 4 and a half. And then last year it went from 3,000 to 13,000, which is quite a move considering the volume of it. Ghana and the Ivory Coast make up about 3 million tons, 70%. So that also shows an enormous fragility.
Matt Ross: I think that Indonesia is third with 600,000, and then fourth is Ecuador with 100,000. Bolivia's got 600 tons. So crazy inequality and crazy fragility in the supply chain. Any events that happen on those two? So that's why I say cacao trades $50,000 in the next five years.
Matt Ross: as life gets more bitter people have to exogenously take on sweetness which I think is why we have a spate of diabetes people don't think life's naturally sweet so they have to take it on that's just a personal theory yeah but the sweet tooth is costing us a lot sugar cacao these kind
Matt Ross: kind of things. I think maybe Congo got ivory co something like that. The last 50 years have seen half of its pristine jungle lost to sugar cane and kicked out production. It's not naturally a plant from that area. I see them going parabolic because you can't code a tree, can't speed up nature.
Matt Ross: So, if you have a CN tree that's going to stop fruiting, you need to plant one before it finishes fruiting, which means you need to plant it five years before the next one. So, they're all going to run out before they plant. And then there's a five-year gap, but then they'll all be 65 by then, farmers. So, there won't be anyone there to put the trees in. That's the sociographic problem. There's no one left there to do the work. That's why I see cacao price spiking. I see people making vertically farmed cell-based hydrogenated versions which doesn't need deforestation. And that's okay.
Matt Ross: You can do those things if you want, but the Ins regarded cacao pod as a god. It's a master plant. It has unbelievable amounts of tryptophan and three bromine, which just elevate you and make you feel amazing. The spices, before we commercialized energy, energy wasn't commercial. It was ceremonial. And we went and commercialized it and industrialized it. Energy doesn't work like that. Energy is a steady state. It's not an insulin spike. So whilst there might well be lots of startups that are doing it, at the end of the day, it's never going to feel like a virtuous piece of creole kow in the middle of the Amazon. You're just not going to get that feeling. You got to feel it. We're humans. We have a soul.
Matt Ross: And when we feel a plant that has a soul, it connects with us. Food makes you feel something. And you can't lab-grow feelings. Only nature can do that. So, before Armageddon, I would divert as much money as possible into the sources of cacao, which are still available. And there are lots of sources of cacao that are undiscovered. There are millions of trees around the world that people walk past every day and don't even know that someone will buy them. I mean, I know quite a lot of those areas and am hoping to work on a project on one of them soon. And they've never been taught about the kale price or how to post-harvest because they're a long way away. There's no coal chain, or there's no logistics and supply chain that would take a lot of hard work. So, they don't bother.
Matt Ross: Because we live in a way where everything's got to be big. There has to be a mega factory, and there have to be boatloads of it. And in top-down centralized governance. I believe in decentralized mycelial emergent sovereigns within a collective. Just like ants or swarms or bees or birds or fish, there's not someone orchestrating them from the top. They just know what they're doing, and they're all their men. They just get on with it. That's what we're supposed to be as well because we're nature.
Matt Ross: Only in the Disney movies do you have a…
Matt Ross: What to do there? Hierarchies and stuff. It's it doesn't exist.
Michael Boyle: I think that there's another element that you alluded to, which we do not take into consideration, how long it takes for nature to create the various things that we take for granted. And in the example you gave with the coconut, it's quite quick in comparison to some of the other things that we've been relying upon.
Michael Boyle: Case in point, the amount of time that was required for nature to c to create the petroleum that we've been using and in the speed by which we've been consuming all of all these natural materials and we reach a certain point in time of where nature could never go ahead and create it. So I'm just piggybacking on these concepts. Then we'll create it artificially, as if we are not using parts of nature to complete those actions. All we're doing is taking different parts of nature and trying to fill some sort of gap that eventually is going to run out.
Michael Boyle: So, based on those types of thoughts, I'd be curious to get your opinion on how we should relate to our environments.
Matt Ross: I think it's the indigenous native Americans that make decisions for seven generations.
Matt Ross: I think that's their minimum. truly wealthy families because they make generational decisions. If you look at very successful funds, they make decade decisions or at least three to five-year decisions. And then the poorer you get, the shorter your time frame. so you get these companies that essentially self-cannibalize themselves for a quarterly result. What can you really achieve in 3 months that takes nine months for a baby? to be at least the minimum. You've got to think that you can bring anything to life or do anything in nine months.
Matt Ross: It takes years of practice and years of consistency to be a professional athlete. What thing of any value or longevity is achieved quickly? Most people who win the lottery have given it all back within a couple of years. And we are obsessed with dopamine and instant gratification; however, people save 18 years for a college fund, which is quite interesting.
Matt Ross: So they understand there are longer-term time frames but I think we've got into a position of debt credit and inflation where so many people are two or three paychecks away from not having any ability to carry on that we're collectively almost like in a fight or flight nervous system all we're overproducing cortisol. And whilst it would be lovely to listen and talk about and think about a 10-year decision on coffee and coconuts and cacao, that sounds like pure fantasy to me because I don't know where the rent's coming from next month. I don't know if they're going to increase electric bills, and I won't be able to paint my house this Christmas.
Matt Ross: So, we've created a day life where we're not allowing ourselves to think longer term because there are so many short-term worries. We're so distracted. Life is not simpler. It's become more complex because of the complexity and the distraction, you can go many months and think Did I achieve anything? Whereas nature, you can't rush. She'll get there. She can't be rushed. She'll always give you a result. She always yields. There are no questions. She understands the seasons. Humans don't understand the seasons. We work for 50 weeks of the year and have two weeks off. As crazy as it should be. Three or four months off. We all have seasons and cycles.
Matt Ross: During the day, we have energy flows. We're at 13 13 moons. Everything works in seasons and cycles. But when we lose our circadian rhythm because we live in artificial light. We have a Gregorian calendar. So we have no idea where the moon and the lunar cycles relate to the month. And that's why I love all the old pictures with the turtle holding up the world, because on the back of the turtle in the back there are 13 main sections and around the outside, there are 28 smaller sections. The turtle's the calendar, and each section relates to a moon. There are 13 moons of 28 days, and that's one moon cycle, and that's one cycle.
Matt Ross: That's why the turtles are so highly regarded in so many faiths. They would tell you if the woman was in the luteal phase. They would tell you which moon to plant which month and which segment of the moon to plant your plants. Now we have the beginning of the month, but the moon cycle is halfway through the month. So, we've lost our connection to the moon. And that's pretty crazy considering it controls everything feminine, controls the tides, it controls the women, it controls everything, but we're out of sync with it. So, that's quite di blue light rays are quite disorientating for our circadian rhythms.
Matt Ross: And we're just out of sync. We wear rubber shoes, so we're never grounded. We don't have our feet on the ground. We're not giving our ionic exchange back into the ground. We're not exchanging back with Mother Earth. We have electricity and phones with us all the time around our aura. And people who hug a tree or go near a tree or hold a tree, people frown upon it. Don't understand. It's like going to a doctor.
Matt Ross: You get inside the toroidal field of a tree, and you feel it healing. It's beautiful. And we live in high-rise blocks. Food comes in a box. We are detaching ourselves from nature and the way that ions and the toroidal field of energy work.
Matt Ross: This is why all the seashells, the snails, the tornadoes are all in the Fibonacci spiral, because that's the way the energy moves out of the planet. And we have lines of trees, the same tree, like a cloned line of trees, and the pests are like, "Wow, we don't have to spend any cost for a straight highway. All the foods we can infect this place in two seconds straight. There's only one tree. It's the one we want." And so we make it really simple for pests to wipe out a monocrop. Nothing exists on its own. It's very whilst industrialization and modernization brought us some wonderful things, they also brought us individualization. A classic example of that is Coffee is still in the Arab world served in a pot with a small cup, and everyone pours and they share the experience.
Matt Ross: Wine is still drunk in a bottle with a few glasses. It's a shared experience. So we go to coffee, being a Sufi mystic elixia to have direct transcendence with God. And now we have someone walking and getting an 800-calorie frappuccino grande vonte with noise-cancelling headphones and walking straight out without connecting with anyone. The sacred elixir has become a nervous system shot. Yeah, we've drifted a long way from home. But if you listen, Mom will take us back at any second. She'll say, "Come home. Don't worry. It's okay. I knew you were going to go out, make your mistakes, and think I didn't know what I was talking about. You could do it better. I love you and my children. So you can come home and I'll look after you.
Michael Boyle: You really take us to a point that I personally visit quite often and…
Matt Ross: No shame.
Michael Boyle: Is that the point in time that we've started to separate ourselves from all of those things that you're talking about? And in fact, there was an article that I stumbled across in your Substack feed that directly alludes to that movement that took place in the 15th century.
Michael Boyle: Perhaps if you can allude a little bit to that of the architecture that was based upon straight lines, which could be seen as being the precursor to that, but eventually came from people like René Descartes, who more or less started with the separation between our environment and ourselves. I'd be keen on your thoughts tied to what you wrote, and maybe taking that in and following us on that path.
Matt Ross: Yeah, that was quite interesting, the timing on that one.
Matt Ross: I've always been obsessed with waste and straight lines because they're not natural. They don't exist in nature. There's no waste in nature. There are no straight lines in nature. And it was on April 25th. I sat down and I thought I was going to find the straight line. I'm going to find out who did it. And then, for some reason, of course, the last supper's got it. And so I looked into it and I found out that I think it was Bianci who was the guy that first developed it, but it was Batista who, interestingly, died on April 27th, which is the day I published it on Substack.
Matt Ross: And he invented linear perspective, which was the illusion of depth on a finite-dimensional plane. And the irony of The Last Supper using the linear perspective gives us a deceptive depth that relies on two things. It relies on a horizon and a vanishing point. But it does give you the illusion of depth that there's more there than there Closer you get to it, you realize that there's nothing there. it was only alluding to it.
Matt Ross: So I found and I mean if it's karmic I'm really sorry buddy I know that you're doing a great thing and it's amazing what you did for art but we went and took it a bit too literal and we live on finite resources we can help assist nature generate herself But Elon's already trying to work out what happens when we ruin this one. We got to find somewhere else. So he's even further in front than me. and I guess 600 years ago nature was completely infinite. you could have pangolin scales in your noodles.
Matt Ross: I guess you could have rhino horns, millions of them. I mean, if you look at 1850, there were 60 million bison in the Great Plains. 500 million hectares, 60 million buffalo bison. When those guys moved, can you imagine? I mean, it would be like watching the earth move. And when they moved across their great plains, their hooves would churn it up, and behind would just be a completely natural ecosystem that would eat the worms that would regenerate the grasses and bison grass, and that's different from cattle grass, and so everything was infinite in those days.
Matt Ross: But then we developed systems that didn't replenish, and there has to be the law of balance, otherwise you become a parasite or a siphon. Nature always balances. It's a law of equilibrium. So when one way is going more than the other, it will have a collapse. It can only get to a mathematically sustainable point before collapse is inevitable because there has to be equilibrium in the law of exchange. And I feel that what was a very beautiful way of art, and it is a lovely linear perspective, is very nice and it's very interesting, should have just stayed on the canvas.
Matt Ross: should have never made it into the farmyard. And yeah, then you have daycare, and you have a whole school of people. Some people call it the Renaissance after the Dark Ages. I would question that. Maybe it wasn't a renaissance. Maybe it was the separation. It kind of feels like we separated ego and self at that time we became, because for a linear perspective to work, you are observing it as an individual one from a singular point. It's not collectivism. It's a sign it's for the singular viewer. It's all of a sudden we became separate from each other.
Matt Ross: And then, of course, you add in all of the other divisions that we've created for ourselves. It's everything now.
Matt Ross: I can't think of anything you can't be separate about now. I really don't.
Michael Boyle: This is part of our problem. Following that line of thought, you mentioned at the beginning of our discussion that you come from investment banking, and so the tools of the trade, so to speak. I am wondering if you can think of anything that we could possibly do to change the structure and how those financial mechanisms are working to get us better in line with those things that we're talking about today. Specifically being more in tune with nature, and understanding that we need to have regenerative structures for us to continue
Michael Boyle: singly and collectively. Can you think of any approaches that we could take using monetary theory and the like, or certain accounting processes that would allow us to get a little bit closer to where we need to be
Matt Ross: Yeah,… I can. I mean, if you observe natural laws and you see exactly how much nature can give you policy, I mean, you're going to so for the coconut 1 to 8 million in 13 years, that's crazy. If you have a mixed portfolio, it's common practice to have a mixed portfolio, yet not on a hectare of land for farming. All eggs are in one basket. That doesn't make any monetary sense. All land must be a portfolio. All land must yield multiple revenue streams.
Matt Ross:
Matt Ross: Every bit of land must yield at least 5 to 15 revenue streams. Otherwise, it's not being efficient in the allocation of resources. It is extremely important. Otherwise, you have an inefficiency in the allocation of resources, and that's waste. That's not a good thing. and we systems and ways that I didn't ever really get involved in crypto. I promised when I left banking in 2011. I would never trade again. So I've happily watched all of that go by.
Matt Ross: Part of me thinks that Bitcoin is for the endpoint because it's a store of value based on sentiment. It's nothing based on nothing. And if you turn the electricity off, you can't get hold of it. That's how far away we are from the store of value. that there are more billions going into Bitcoin than there are into coconut food. It's not a value in the ground. The bank will lend you $250, and every year you're going to make $250 every year for 50 years for every tree. If you just sold a nut for a dollar, if you properly maximized it, you could probably get $5 per nut.
Matt Ross: So you get $1,000 a tree, you get 170 trees on a hectare. So you start looking at those numbers, then you intercrop vanilla, ginger, turmeric, and nutmeg, and you get your 5 to 15 revenue streams. And then because your asset is so intrinsically valuable and working so well, of course, of carbon, because to produce 200 kilos of product, I needed to sequester 400 kilos of carbon dioxide. It's a direct result. I can't produce biomass without carbon dioxide. I don't need a satellite to tell you you can eat it, right?
Matt Ross: And so if we start thinking about it's just strange to start trading the derivative when the asset is not being taken care of or looked after. It's like trading gold futures, but no one knows if there's any gold besides if we've got the gold that we place the future on. And apparently've got 10 we've got 10,000 tons of gold. So we're going to issue 10,000 futures, and they're all going to trade this, and then you can leverage another 10,000 futures. No. Has anyone checked on the gold? And this is quite a little gold. Yeah, there's not that much gold there.
Matt Ross: I'm using gold, but I'm not meaning to politically state that in regards to the current situation in a big country that we know. That was probably a bad example to use, but you know what I mean. It's just we're not looking after the asset, but we're obsessed with trading. By the time you can trade it, there won't be an asset underneath it.
Matt Ross: It's flipped. It's inverted. It's strange.
Michael Boyle: But you described very well the dilemma that is going to hit us, specifically tied to cacao and…
Michael Boyle: Eventually, this house of cards is going to fall.
Michael Boyle: If there's any specific message that you'd like to leave the audience that they need to know, or something that you think is quite poignant to close our conversation.
Matt Ross: I would tell them to take off their shoes and go outside and find a tree and just stay in there and be in peace and be quiet and reconnect on a personal level. Just find a spot on some grass, sit next to a tree, do what you've got. There's no one coming to save you.
Matt Ross: No one. We outsourced all of our sovereignty and all of our collective power to certain institutions and structures, where it's kind of like when you're young you get with someone and you ask them to love you but that they can't love you and so you get upset when they don't but they never could. We've got to take a bit of self-ownership, and let's really start on the basics and go and visit a farm. Read up on it all and start a new journey because I tell you, nature's fascinating. She's beautiful. She's fascinating. She gives us everything we want. All of the cures to all of our diseases are all out there. They're all growing.
Matt Ross: And it's just very beautiful and it's peaceful and nice and she appreciates you when you look after her and…
Matt Ross: She'll look after you because she's always there watching.